Old #19
No, I am not talking about Stevey Y. or even Job Bakija for that matter. This has to do with my friend/zero teammate Shaner. If you do not know what this is about go to: "http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.disc/browse_frm/thread/92bc605a86d1efff/5289eadf4344ede2#5289eadf4344ede2". (Sidebar, how did I lose the ability to link stuff? Instead of saying here with a link, I have to put it all in. Anyone?)
Anyway, I have several points I would like to make:
#1 - Shane is a good friend of mine and former teammate, someone I would really enjoy playing with/hanging out with. So, this post will be biased in that way. Shane made Zero after his freshman year. He is easily bigger and more solid than 95% of all ultimate frisbee battles. He will rarely lose any collision whether it is on purpose or accident. Early on, he came close to hitting people and actually did make contact with a couple. I feel all the captains spoke with him about it. We stressed to stay aggressive, but not learn to avoid the offensive player. For 2 main reasons, the main and most important part is safety. Reckless bids do hurt. Secondly, if you even touch someone you risk getting a foul called even if it wasn't. I feel he worked on it and when I last played with him (early 2006), his defensive game had improved immensely. And he was no longer hitting people (he was HUGE in the fall of 05). Definitely a defender who change the game.
#B - I did kind of whine about the potential of what Shane is doing in an earlier posts about the rules. I can only speak about what I saw of Shane and since early in his first year with us, he has not damaged anyone. Of course, everything is subjective. The people who crushed me probably did think they had a chance. I don't really understand what happened to the UNT guy. He was tiptoeing the line, then laid out, then was landed on. He claims had no bid at the disc because it was 5 feet out of bounds. But the defense can go get it out of bounds. I am confused.
#3 - Can we stop putting the Nord picture out there and saying this is how it is done? Well yeah that is how it is done. But you have to be 6' 11", goofy, red-haired, and hella-athletic to do that. Plus, Nord is only a slightly larger stick than I am (let's call him a branch). So if he gets hit, he is probably getting hurt. Unless of course, it is by me. (Sidebar: Is Nord the best red-haired athlete since Bill Walton? Ok, maybe Steve Timmons)
#4 - To the guy that says this is caused by elite ultimate and aggressiveness. Some of the worst layouts injuries I have seen are in summer league or pick-up when the not so athletic, not so good, and not so athletic people are playing. There is a certain level of aggressiveness at the highest level that is for sure. But reckless abandon happens all the time. Part of the process is learning what is which. I believe Shane knows this, so until further evidence is out there, I believe he was not being terribly reckless (since there is no sportscenter to show me the highlights). BUT in the college game, you have players with less than 3 years, or less than a year or even less than 3 months out there running hard and trying to prove they belong. They are trying to make plays. They will do anything to do it. Unfortunately, injuries do occur when people are trying to figure out their limits. It is unfortunate, but laying out to get a d is one of the 2 most identifiable plays in ultimate (the other being a huck for a goal). Everyone loves a lay out d. When they see the best do it (ie "The Branch"), they want to do it. They might not be able to or not as tall or not as skill. Don't they have to learn somehow. Hopefully, no one gets hurt.
#4a - Are younger guys allowed more lee-way like this? Thinking back to my posts, I was mainly discussing club players. I do not remember as much of a problem in call. But I guess I am saying newbies have a little more room for error in this since they are just learning.
#4b - The only time I saw elite high school ultimate was in 05. The one thing that I saw was just tons of laying out. I am not sure if this is across the board, but lots of laying out on the mark, on deep cuts, on in cuts, etc. Besides being a dumb philospohy to allow as a coach, it concerns me a little more. Maybe younger guys should not have the leeway. Maybe they need to show that they have the ability and coordination to do it.
#4c - like how I argued both sides there? Basically, I think high coaches should not encourage laying out all the time. They should talk to their kids about when to do it.
#e - You mean ultimate is a non-contact sport. Really? It is supposed to be a non-contact sport. But there is always contact. There just is and there is nothing you can do about it.
#5 - Larger point, why the hell are the college teams travelling so much? Whatever happened to 1 or 2 big tourneys and 2 or 3 local tourneys. And where the hell are the getting the $$$? The more big time tourneys with the big time comp you go to, you are going to get injured more often. Why not travel to a couple more local tourneys, blow some teams out, improve the play of your younger/bottom roster guys, party a little more, and know you are going to win a tourney if you are Wisconsin? These tournaments are tougher than nationals, with more games per day, less rest, not in the best shape. You are asking for disasters. Stay home and get the younger kids better. Rest your bones What do I know, I only made quarters.
#6 - who gave Nick reeck 5 stars as poster? No way.
#7 - Re- the over-aggressive nature of Wisco. It sounds like UNT is not used to that level of play. From what I have seen of Wisconsin, they are not cheap players. They definitely mark hard, but legal. They just have some many athletes they can throw at you. It reminds me of 2000 when we went to Stanford, do not do so well, maybe a quarters loss to Black Tide and won the spirit award. Later, we come back to play in a central region tourney and we are called dicks on rsd but some of the great lakes teams. We are spirit winners against the top and asses against the bottom. Maybe UNT is just not used to the top just yet, I am sure they will get there as it seems they are playing well against the top. It just takes some getting used to.
OK, I am done. That was one of the first times I have read every post on rsd in a while. And since it dealt with a good friend, I felt like I wanted to say something. Shaner, I hope you are alright, keep doing what you are doing, just stop landing on people on accident you haggard!
Anyway, I have several points I would like to make:
#1 - Shane is a good friend of mine and former teammate, someone I would really enjoy playing with/hanging out with. So, this post will be biased in that way. Shane made Zero after his freshman year. He is easily bigger and more solid than 95% of all ultimate frisbee battles. He will rarely lose any collision whether it is on purpose or accident. Early on, he came close to hitting people and actually did make contact with a couple. I feel all the captains spoke with him about it. We stressed to stay aggressive, but not learn to avoid the offensive player. For 2 main reasons, the main and most important part is safety. Reckless bids do hurt. Secondly, if you even touch someone you risk getting a foul called even if it wasn't. I feel he worked on it and when I last played with him (early 2006), his defensive game had improved immensely. And he was no longer hitting people (he was HUGE in the fall of 05). Definitely a defender who change the game.
#B - I did kind of whine about the potential of what Shane is doing in an earlier posts about the rules. I can only speak about what I saw of Shane and since early in his first year with us, he has not damaged anyone. Of course, everything is subjective. The people who crushed me probably did think they had a chance. I don't really understand what happened to the UNT guy. He was tiptoeing the line, then laid out, then was landed on. He claims had no bid at the disc because it was 5 feet out of bounds. But the defense can go get it out of bounds. I am confused.
#3 - Can we stop putting the Nord picture out there and saying this is how it is done? Well yeah that is how it is done. But you have to be 6' 11", goofy, red-haired, and hella-athletic to do that. Plus, Nord is only a slightly larger stick than I am (let's call him a branch). So if he gets hit, he is probably getting hurt. Unless of course, it is by me. (Sidebar: Is Nord the best red-haired athlete since Bill Walton? Ok, maybe Steve Timmons)
#4 - To the guy that says this is caused by elite ultimate and aggressiveness. Some of the worst layouts injuries I have seen are in summer league or pick-up when the not so athletic, not so good, and not so athletic people are playing. There is a certain level of aggressiveness at the highest level that is for sure. But reckless abandon happens all the time. Part of the process is learning what is which. I believe Shane knows this, so until further evidence is out there, I believe he was not being terribly reckless (since there is no sportscenter to show me the highlights). BUT in the college game, you have players with less than 3 years, or less than a year or even less than 3 months out there running hard and trying to prove they belong. They are trying to make plays. They will do anything to do it. Unfortunately, injuries do occur when people are trying to figure out their limits. It is unfortunate, but laying out to get a d is one of the 2 most identifiable plays in ultimate (the other being a huck for a goal). Everyone loves a lay out d. When they see the best do it (ie "The Branch"), they want to do it. They might not be able to or not as tall or not as skill. Don't they have to learn somehow. Hopefully, no one gets hurt.
#4a - Are younger guys allowed more lee-way like this? Thinking back to my posts, I was mainly discussing club players. I do not remember as much of a problem in call. But I guess I am saying newbies have a little more room for error in this since they are just learning.
#4b - The only time I saw elite high school ultimate was in 05. The one thing that I saw was just tons of laying out. I am not sure if this is across the board, but lots of laying out on the mark, on deep cuts, on in cuts, etc. Besides being a dumb philospohy to allow as a coach, it concerns me a little more. Maybe younger guys should not have the leeway. Maybe they need to show that they have the ability and coordination to do it.
#4c - like how I argued both sides there? Basically, I think high coaches should not encourage laying out all the time. They should talk to their kids about when to do it.
#e - You mean ultimate is a non-contact sport. Really? It is supposed to be a non-contact sport. But there is always contact. There just is and there is nothing you can do about it.
#5 - Larger point, why the hell are the college teams travelling so much? Whatever happened to 1 or 2 big tourneys and 2 or 3 local tourneys. And where the hell are the getting the $$$? The more big time tourneys with the big time comp you go to, you are going to get injured more often. Why not travel to a couple more local tourneys, blow some teams out, improve the play of your younger/bottom roster guys, party a little more, and know you are going to win a tourney if you are Wisconsin? These tournaments are tougher than nationals, with more games per day, less rest, not in the best shape. You are asking for disasters. Stay home and get the younger kids better. Rest your bones What do I know, I only made quarters.
#6 - who gave Nick reeck 5 stars as poster? No way.
#7 - Re- the over-aggressive nature of Wisco. It sounds like UNT is not used to that level of play. From what I have seen of Wisconsin, they are not cheap players. They definitely mark hard, but legal. They just have some many athletes they can throw at you. It reminds me of 2000 when we went to Stanford, do not do so well, maybe a quarters loss to Black Tide and won the spirit award. Later, we come back to play in a central region tourney and we are called dicks on rsd but some of the great lakes teams. We are spirit winners against the top and asses against the bottom. Maybe UNT is just not used to the top just yet, I am sure they will get there as it seems they are playing well against the top. It just takes some getting used to.
OK, I am done. That was one of the first times I have read every post on rsd in a while. And since it dealt with a good friend, I felt like I wanted to say something. Shaner, I hope you are alright, keep doing what you are doing, just stop landing on people on accident you haggard!
posted by sometallskinnykid at 8:23 PM
7 Comments:
Tim- to link to stuff, highlight the text you want to make into a link, and then click the little earth button in the blogger composer toolbar. It will allow you to enter a website. Your text will then become a link to that website.
I agree with most of what you have said about aggressiveness and laying out. I didn't bother posting on RSD about it cause some people are just stupid.
As for linking, if that doesn't work, the HTML way is type:
whatever you want to be blue and clickable goes here
Wait wasn't it like last year that you posted about pike almost ruining your nationals on their layout into the guy style? I definitely remember you discussing what constitutes a good bid, and I thought it was a good post.
Maybe the UNT guy posting should've thought out his post as he was unnecessarily harsh, but he did watch his best player get taken out for the season by something that sounded a lot like the "bad bids" you described last year. UNT guy's post was a lot like yours, although his was a lot harsher, and without a spell checker I guess. So maybe you can see where he is coming from (and I think the hurt player doesn't have his pectoral muscle attached anymore?).
The bid into the dude aggressiveness is prevailent everywhere in college ultimate I feel. I've seen wisconsin play before and didn't feel it was a greater aspect to their game more than any other team I've played or seen. I'm sure UNT has some sophmore that they nicknamed "wild dog" or something that has crunched a good cutter or two before.
Yep that was me alright. I realize that I am a hypocrite.
I think the situation is different, but I am not clear what really happened. Shane seems to have taken responsibility in his post, but does not really clarify what happened besides it was an accident and he was not bidding for the disc. I think he says that in his post that he did not bid into the guy. I believe him, but still I don't know what was going on.
SO yeah, it is close to the line of me changing my story. For now, I will take Shane at his word that it was a fluke and not a bid. Legs tangled up? Shoes untied? I don't know. The difference with the nationals game was it was a bid in which he was not looking at the disc only at the back of the teammate.
And obviously, I saw it so I know what I saw (I am sure others saw differently).
And I know what I read from Shane, that he said he did not lay out, but somehow landed on him.
I am sure that is unclear.
Tim, congratulations, you've established yourself as a successful blogger. Once you go on record saying enough things, you're going to contradict yourself some of the time.
This comment has been removed by the author.
No serious contradiction here.
Timmy never called out a whole team, style or style of play. Nor did he condemn any players to a season of being asked about dumb shit by calling them out by name.
Things get heated in ultimate games and occassionally players make bad decisions. As long as it isn't representative of the way either individuals or teams consistently play, there is no real problem. That is not representative of Pike, and Timmy says that it is not representative of Shane. Sweet. Case closed.
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