What is up with Mixed?
Things that were different to me:
- Pace of the game -> it is slower than club that is for sure. I think this should be fairly obvious, but more noticeable to me when you throw the open game nearby. I don't feel that you have to work as hard on O or D (Note: this does not mean it is always easier, there were plenty of times where I was covered or my man burned me, etc. Many people who could play in the open game @ natties, but not every guy on the field could.) It seemed before the point when the matchup became obvious, I would know how difficult it would be. If I was matched up against the "more known" players, it was a bit more difficult than if I did not recognize/know my opponent. This is true in open, for example more difficult to guard Chase on Sockeye than say #56 or something like that. BUT, the "7th" guy in open is better/more of a threat than say the #4 guy in coed. At least, that is my opinion.
- Isolating -> On D, it is much more isolating guarding your person downfield. In the open, you make a mistake or take a risk and jump something on defense. You, most likely, have someone else there to back you up. In mixed, you can't really overpursue or be too aggressive on the under, because you are the last man back a lot of the times. Really the only man back. And the ez score is not really worth it. Guarding the tall dude Mahoney as the only guy downfield is a lot of fun. Also, there is more of starting a man as a "handler" and taking off deep in terms of an iso cut. Again, no men to help out behind you, so if your person beats you early or you let it go for a couple steps, well it will be sent. It definitely makes you think about the position you are guarding the other man.
- Many Weird Throws -> maybe close to huck n hope, but definitely zany throws are encouraged. Part of this has to do with more 1-on-1 matchups downfield, so if you have an angle you just need to throw. Lord knows, I forced a couple deep shots to James when he was iso'd and had a good matchup. Knowing there is no last back to help out, makes it a bit more comforting as a thrower. So "less normal" throws are very effective and can be used for good. By less normal, I mean like anverts or crazy hammers or dying ducks to the breakside, etc. A strategy decision for sure that might getting d'd up more in open due to more guys on the field.
- College-ish -> the game reminds me of playing college, mainly b/c the O is not as efficient. There have been some good college O teams and not really good mixed ones as well. But there was not a team all year that I thought they would not give us the disc with a bit of pressure. Never did I feel, or crap we are down by XX, how the hell are we coming back. Again, not to seem like I am completely slamming coed, I mean Slow White played great to maintain a lead in the 2nd half against us. Tandem was effective, until the rain came. Shazam always maintain their huge leads. But, we still got the disc from them and could not convert. At times, it did not feel if we were going to get the d, but will we be able to score when we get it. Make sense? No real team that I would consider an automatic scoring machine.
- Women -> I feel there is a differernce in throwing the disc to a tightly covered man vs. tightly covered woman. I am more likely to throw to a man that is closely covered on an under then I am to throw to a woman that is tightly covered. I feel this was killing me earlier in the year and adjusted. On that note, women get much more open than men do on unders. So I still feel I throw to them. Also, the best teams utilize their women much more than the not as best teams do. Let's draw the line at 9th. Everyone above really good. Everyone below just good. We played most of the top 8 teams this year (dnp Barrio and Amp). The 6 teams we played had significant contribution from multiple women. Tandem used their women the least, probably, but they got a lot of the shorter women who was a cutter. The couple of teams we played below, our women kind of had free reign. Maybe not so much on O (but our women did score more goals in those games), but really on d it was obvious. Not that we just shut their women down, it was more of a lot more poaching/looking for ways to get involved in d.
- Zone -> this is where I thought of the gender difference the most. For example, I played deep d quite a bit. And I really pushed the yardage gap between myself and a woman deep. I would say 30 + yards at times. I do not think I got beat by a woman deep, but found I got beat if I played to deep on a woman and a man slid in between myself and the short deep or wing. In an attempt to stop this, I tried to always adjust to where the deep man was and kind of let the thrower think about putting something deep/crazy/bladey to the woman. (Whereas as an "open deep deep" I would only really account for the wind and most likely throw as a "coed deep deep" I searched for the deep men on the opposing team and relied on the sidelines to keep track of the deep women). I am sure this is not rocket science to everyone and most people who are confident to play deep deep would do this, but I was definitely reading to facial expressions/looks of the thrower a bit more. I felt I could tell if the throwers were confident enough in their woman receiver a couple of throws into the zone point. I got a d late in the tandem game in zone on the above mentioned shorter woman who was an excellent cutter. I mean, I am close to a foot taller than her. But I could tell that this team was willing to put a lot of stuff to her, so I was a little more cautious in terms of where she was. In our later games, I was not so worried. Also, when I was popping or handling in the zone o, I looked to attack where the woman was upfield (most teams had a woman as wing). Basically, I searched for the man guarded by woman match-up. And I tried not to throw to a woman on the sideline as much. Most coed zones invovled a man marking and looking to trap (see below comment on marking).
- Marking -> definitely teams look to get ds and really get excited when women have the disc near the trap sideline (including our team). It kind of makes sense, because many teams don't have 3 experienced throwing women on the field. That is fine. I would try to get our team to press the men on the trap sideline more. This is a big reason for Shazam's success (I think). I feel they pressured the men as much as the women. A constant pressure no matter who had the disc. Whereas all other teams, I did not ever get the feeling of this huge pressure from the opposing team's defense. Now, I have motivated all coed teams to improve their man on man defense... Seriously though, if all 7 people all playing hard defense, I think you can force things a bit more.
- Pace of the game -> it is slower than club that is for sure. I think this should be fairly obvious, but more noticeable to me when you throw the open game nearby. I don't feel that you have to work as hard on O or D (Note: this does not mean it is always easier, there were plenty of times where I was covered or my man burned me, etc. Many people who could play in the open game @ natties, but not every guy on the field could.) It seemed before the point when the matchup became obvious, I would know how difficult it would be. If I was matched up against the "more known" players, it was a bit more difficult than if I did not recognize/know my opponent. This is true in open, for example more difficult to guard Chase on Sockeye than say #56 or something like that. BUT, the "7th" guy in open is better/more of a threat than say the #4 guy in coed. At least, that is my opinion.
- Isolating -> On D, it is much more isolating guarding your person downfield. In the open, you make a mistake or take a risk and jump something on defense. You, most likely, have someone else there to back you up. In mixed, you can't really overpursue or be too aggressive on the under, because you are the last man back a lot of the times. Really the only man back. And the ez score is not really worth it. Guarding the tall dude Mahoney as the only guy downfield is a lot of fun. Also, there is more of starting a man as a "handler" and taking off deep in terms of an iso cut. Again, no men to help out behind you, so if your person beats you early or you let it go for a couple steps, well it will be sent. It definitely makes you think about the position you are guarding the other man.
- Many Weird Throws -> maybe close to huck n hope, but definitely zany throws are encouraged. Part of this has to do with more 1-on-1 matchups downfield, so if you have an angle you just need to throw. Lord knows, I forced a couple deep shots to James when he was iso'd and had a good matchup. Knowing there is no last back to help out, makes it a bit more comforting as a thrower. So "less normal" throws are very effective and can be used for good. By less normal, I mean like anverts or crazy hammers or dying ducks to the breakside, etc. A strategy decision for sure that might getting d'd up more in open due to more guys on the field.
- College-ish -> the game reminds me of playing college, mainly b/c the O is not as efficient. There have been some good college O teams and not really good mixed ones as well. But there was not a team all year that I thought they would not give us the disc with a bit of pressure. Never did I feel, or crap we are down by XX, how the hell are we coming back. Again, not to seem like I am completely slamming coed, I mean Slow White played great to maintain a lead in the 2nd half against us. Tandem was effective, until the rain came. Shazam always maintain their huge leads. But, we still got the disc from them and could not convert. At times, it did not feel if we were going to get the d, but will we be able to score when we get it. Make sense? No real team that I would consider an automatic scoring machine.
- Women -> I feel there is a differernce in throwing the disc to a tightly covered man vs. tightly covered woman. I am more likely to throw to a man that is closely covered on an under then I am to throw to a woman that is tightly covered. I feel this was killing me earlier in the year and adjusted. On that note, women get much more open than men do on unders. So I still feel I throw to them. Also, the best teams utilize their women much more than the not as best teams do. Let's draw the line at 9th. Everyone above really good. Everyone below just good. We played most of the top 8 teams this year (dnp Barrio and Amp). The 6 teams we played had significant contribution from multiple women. Tandem used their women the least, probably, but they got a lot of the shorter women who was a cutter. The couple of teams we played below, our women kind of had free reign. Maybe not so much on O (but our women did score more goals in those games), but really on d it was obvious. Not that we just shut their women down, it was more of a lot more poaching/looking for ways to get involved in d.
- Zone -> this is where I thought of the gender difference the most. For example, I played deep d quite a bit. And I really pushed the yardage gap between myself and a woman deep. I would say 30 + yards at times. I do not think I got beat by a woman deep, but found I got beat if I played to deep on a woman and a man slid in between myself and the short deep or wing. In an attempt to stop this, I tried to always adjust to where the deep man was and kind of let the thrower think about putting something deep/crazy/bladey to the woman. (Whereas as an "open deep deep" I would only really account for the wind and most likely throw as a "coed deep deep" I searched for the deep men on the opposing team and relied on the sidelines to keep track of the deep women). I am sure this is not rocket science to everyone and most people who are confident to play deep deep would do this, but I was definitely reading to facial expressions/looks of the thrower a bit more. I felt I could tell if the throwers were confident enough in their woman receiver a couple of throws into the zone point. I got a d late in the tandem game in zone on the above mentioned shorter woman who was an excellent cutter. I mean, I am close to a foot taller than her. But I could tell that this team was willing to put a lot of stuff to her, so I was a little more cautious in terms of where she was. In our later games, I was not so worried. Also, when I was popping or handling in the zone o, I looked to attack where the woman was upfield (most teams had a woman as wing). Basically, I searched for the man guarded by woman match-up. And I tried not to throw to a woman on the sideline as much. Most coed zones invovled a man marking and looking to trap (see below comment on marking).
- Marking -> definitely teams look to get ds and really get excited when women have the disc near the trap sideline (including our team). It kind of makes sense, because many teams don't have 3 experienced throwing women on the field. That is fine. I would try to get our team to press the men on the trap sideline more. This is a big reason for Shazam's success (I think). I feel they pressured the men as much as the women. A constant pressure no matter who had the disc. Whereas all other teams, I did not ever get the feeling of this huge pressure from the opposing team's defense. Now, I have motivated all coed teams to improve their man on man defense... Seriously though, if all 7 people all playing hard defense, I think you can force things a bit more.
posted by sometallskinnykid at 10:39 PM
10 Comments:
Tim,
You probably have the most high profile mixed ultimate blog in the country, after your switch from open. I´ve really enjoyed reading it, especially as someone who´s always aspired to play elite open and who was forced into a sitation where I had to play mixed for a summer (I loved every second of it). But I´m a little surprised to read this as your sum-up of the mixed game.
It comes off to me as:
1: Men dominate
2: The game encourages fundamentally bad ultimate
3: Open is a far superior game.
I don´t know, I guess I just expected something, somewhere with regard to the virtues of playing with the flycoons, whether they be in terms of the flow of the game, or even just the fun of getting to play on a team with your wife or getting to play competitively at all.
-kevin
UMN grey duck, 88
well, he ofered areas for improvement, but, yes, yes, and yes. i can only offer that my return to 'open' at solstice (on a masters team) was the first time i'd played 'pissed' in years.
there may or may not be more TO's in mixed, but my experience is that they are of the cheaper variety: miscues, drops. etc.
co-ed is a great frisbee game. but, it is foolish to say that open is anything less than the epitome of the game. it is a reality of co-ed that if you are a big person, you make every effort to avoid contact in a co-ed game. by definition, this allows the men's game to proceed at a better pace.
i've seen some terrible collisions in mens: but my impression is that at nationals, cleaner offenses allow men to charge full speed. multi player contact generally occurs on 'hangers' which allows for packs to collide, with potential twisted knees, but minimizes the opportunity for crossfield poaches into contact.
good coed teams (which are the type at nationals) work hard to preclude poor cuts that lead to injury, but, i've played at many MANY co-ed tournaments where 2nd tier co-ed teams have reckless men... etc.
not a stat, but an anecdote: catching an easy goal against a sf team w/ delusions of grandeur, i catch a goal, decellerate, and then have joe league player dive into my knees... i get up, spike it, tell him he's a dipshit, and he unapolagetically trots off, as, someone told him to 'bid everything'
it's college level bullshit. it's really not that hard to stay out of someone's junk, but, poor players abound.
maybe co-ed will raise the level of it's game, but the truth of the matter is that while top level players in co-ed can play at natties, lower level co-ed players just can't
Kevin - Luke said a lot of what I wanted to say. I do think #1 is true. If you think of it that men comprise 4/7 of the team on the field, how often do men touch the disc? > 6/7 I would say. And I would say most teams called plays out of pull were man dominating. But the best teams were opposed to this strategy, Shazam looking to bomb to women after a turn, Rival using their women to set up break marks, Tandem with an excellent secondary cutter, etc. And that was a point I tried to make, the teams who were more successful, used the 3/7 of their team better than the others. Probably pretty obvious. As a strategic thing, if your men can play even and you can utilize your ladies, you have something going.
#2 - just different decision making process. Play 4 on 4 ultimate on a normal ultimate field. The deep pass is much harder to guard. It is easier for women to muck up the unders than the deep. Another way to say it is a "high risk" throw in the open division is not as "high risk" in mixed due to less help deep.
#3 - i played a lot in open and I enjoy the open. I would say the Open game is the best and demands the best (although I thought Sockeye played a bit loose with the disc. But it is hard for me to criticize since they all have 3 rings and I don't). Mixed is like college, more risks, more uncontested turns (like Luke said), and more emotional swings. I think pro football is played better than college football and pro bball better than college football, but I love college sports. Mixed is not open, but it still has a value as a player and even as a spectator.
I still may do a more team oriented post of the year, but this was meant to be objectively about the game itself.
Interesting post comparing the mixed to the open games. Do you have any observations on how your women teammates enjoyed (or were frustrated with, for that matter) the mixed game? People often cite risks of injuries for women playing mixed, but I'm more interested in the other aspects of mixing the genders on the field.
I guess the only question I have is when the hell are you going to start slutting for SZ.
I think your comments are pretty accurate Tim. I wonder what you think about the throws necessary. I think the increased space compared to open and the increased athleticism compared to women's leads to some interesting throwing dynamics. Men need to adjust to throwing more accurately and with more touch to women who have smaller catching zones and need to realize that women don't need as much separation to be open. Men who come from open often look off women they don't think are open when they are or don't feel comfortable throwing with the touch required. Women playing mixed have to look out for poaches they wouldn't normally have to worry about and recognize when throwing to men that defenders can close pretty damn quick. I also think women have to adjust their cuts to make them longer because the avg. man can put it futher more accurately - on deep and in cuts. While there are many mixed players who might not be able to compete athletically at the elite open levls, I've also seen very good open and women's players not play mixed very well because of not making these adjustments quickly.
-ray
As an open player taking a year to play mixed, I can say this is a fairly accurate assessment of mixed. I did feel like I was playing college ultimate again: slower game with the disc staying with one person MUCH longer, more turns and definitely riskier throws (the field position game actually works to a certain extent as not many teams can actually work it 70 yards).
To add to your perspective on "the game is never over", just take a look at the slow white-rival game where rival came back from 12-4ish to win.. i feel it's something that happens a lot more in mixed because unforced errors are a lot more common (I also believe that O-line and D-line philosophies that are used in the men's game don't work- a better strategy might be to keep lines of 7 that play well together on the field: hockey-like line calling)
The dynamic is certainly interesting, I feel like as team morale goes- it is different being in a huddle (the attitude in open is much angrier/filled with general "let kick their ass" phrases). Also, the women that come from elite women's ultimate seem to get very frustrated with not touching the disc (especially the women handlers that are used to making big throws, defensively oriented women players seem to be ok)
Gwen - I played in 5 tourneys, 2 of which would be considered "non-elite" (bozo-fest and sectionals). I witnessed one incident of a man taking out a woman pretty bad. Luckily, she was ok. Other then that, there were some other incidental contact stuff, but nothing outrageous.
If I were a woman and I had the option to play on a national caliber womens or a national caliber mixed, I would probably play women's b/c I would have the ability to be more integral in the team (more than likely). For a man, I think it is a bit different as coed still allows the disc to be funneled through men.
I think our team got along fine and it seemed fit right in as teammates. I do not know if they were clammoring for more of a role, but I think we tried to utilize them fairly often either primary or secondary options on the pull. We did start most of our plays to men for we thought we had a couple of good opening cutters. BUt we had a couple of women who we would try to use in the same respect.
Q - I refuse to play with hodags.
And thanks for bringing up the rival slow white again. That was a nice touch...
I didn't play club mixed this fall, but I did for 5(?) years before. Before that, I played women's club for 3 - 4. (Who can keep track anymore?)
Anyway, I find your perspective on the speed of the game interesting. As a woman, I find the pace of mixed to generally be faster than women's. Granted, I never played elite women's. One of my assets as a player is being pretty fast.
Men who come from Open (and maybe in general) tend to be less concerned with pinpoint accuracy. The expectation is, if they put it, the job of the deep cutter is to run it/pull it down. I find myself feeling as if I have to consistently run faster and cut deeper as a receiver than I did playing women's. (Of course, I had women in both W & X that could send it. It's just not as high a proportion in midrange ultimate as with men.)
I also have found playing mixed has made me come to the disc a good deal harder. Men being on the field means I cannot slack for a minute on O. If I do, it's an easy D for a man and my team is hurt b/c I was being lazy.
Hopefully, this rambling makes some sense.
Sorry about the pseudonym. I changed my username on a bet and haven't gotten around to changing it back. I neither waddle nor am I Scottish.
Alexia
former - BRDM #18
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