A lot of talk these days about fouling, cheating, etc. And it made me think about my game and how big of a cheater I am. As a player, not very big.
I feel like I have only fouled once on purpose*. 2001 natties with zero against dog in our pool play. I felt forch had intentionally fouled twice on the mark on my teammates. So next point, I intentionally fouled him on a huck attempt. He was not too happy, I felt dirty. I guess retribution. Seriously though, I do not think I have ever fouled intentionally besides that. I definitely have fouled on the mark before or a receiver, etc., but never on purpose. Usually it is me getting faked out or reaching to try to get a point block or something. I used to travel on my backhand when I started, but today I make an effort to keep my pivot foot still at all times.
(*At practice, I foul routinely, especially against people I feel may get fouled in a game. Also, in less than major tourneys, I will often times foul my friends so we can laugh about it or I can complain to them they are a wimp. I do not consider this cheating, rather having fun or trying to make my teammates better.)
As a sideline guy or just watching the play on the field, I do not call stuff just b/c it was close or go against what other teams say. If it is close and a teammate of mine calls it one way, I will usually support. But if no one knows, I just don't call in our favor.
Great, I have just spent a couple of paragraphs talking about how awesome I am.
Now, where I wonder how much of a cheater I am is as a captain. Let's go back to the fouling on the mark example. I have never told, taught, or proclaimed to anyone that they should foul on the mark. But I have never discouraged anyone else if it has been said "Do not let Parinella get that throw off. Foul him if you have to." I will say to a comment like that "Better yet, just get the block." How bad is it that I have never told the person who said the first comment, "Hey, don't tell people to foul"?
Or there are guys on my team past and present that I know will foul more often than others. Especially, if they are on the opponent's main thrower. I have never addressed this issue with them. Usually when they mark up, I agree with it and start focusing on my match-up. Never do I say, "Hey you, don't foul Fill." I also know what it means when someone comes up to me and says "we need so-and-so on Fill". And I have even thought we need that guy on Fill so we can have a tough mark on him. Tough mark that sometimes (not always) equals a foul.
As a captain, do I have a bigger responsibility to make sure my team plays exactly by the rules? Or am I not spirited for knowing ahead of time that there is a good possibility for a foul? (I will say this, anyone on my team who is sketchy like this, does not always cheat. I am not trying to rat my team out, but there are guys on every team that will push what they can and can't do to opponents). I guess what allows me to sleep at nite is knowing every team has a couple of these guys. Maybe that is not good enough. Just because Truck has guys like this, does not mean we can have guys like this, etc., etc.
I do try to set an example with my play, but maybe not so much with my words. I could be sterner, but I feel I would be nit-picking. Again, I do not feel like we always have sketchy markers on the field. Nor do I feel like those guys are always in that mode of playing.
In the end, it would not matter what I say. Individuals will do what they feel is ok. And I trust my teammates to do that. I have never played with anyone who I felt really bends the rules every game. I think I would have a problem with that. I feel that currently Sub Zero plays an aggressive hard style of ultimate, but not super physical or a style of play that depends on the rules. We win b/c we played better ultimate than you, you win b/c you played better than us. I have not felt since ~02 that a team has out-called us and that was how they won their game. Our big games 2 weeks ago were clean, but also very aggressive and fun. Exactly how I think ultimate should be played. Sometimes we responded well to the challenge and won and other times we did not pull it out.
I guess the other issue with me as a captain is how often I get involved in calls that are made. Against Furious, after we called a couple close calls and their whole team erupted, I was sort of angry. Later, they made 2 close calls in a row, both times I erupted saying something like "Where is the Furious outrage after that call?" I have even yelled at individual players, the Pike game sticks out in my head. This may not be cheating, but it is definitely not very spirited.
My fear with my team is we do not push back sometimes. Lyn one time told me, "ever since you joined Sub Zero, they cheat more". My response was "ever since I joined Sub Zero, you get to cheat less". I do wonder at times how vocal I should be during calls. I tried as best I could to stay out of the way most of natties. I was really upset a couple of times at regionals, so I tried to calm down at natties.
That did not stop me from yelling "great huck aj, that had to be a foul" during a discussion. [speaking of aj, how about the other aj recapping nationals or talking about how chain lightning hates each other now or something. come on!]
Again, a lot of people do this, but as captain I probably should be setting a better example with my potty mouth.
Yeah right, that won't happen anytime soon...
I feel like I have only fouled once on purpose*. 2001 natties with zero against dog in our pool play. I felt forch had intentionally fouled twice on the mark on my teammates. So next point, I intentionally fouled him on a huck attempt. He was not too happy, I felt dirty. I guess retribution. Seriously though, I do not think I have ever fouled intentionally besides that. I definitely have fouled on the mark before or a receiver, etc., but never on purpose. Usually it is me getting faked out or reaching to try to get a point block or something. I used to travel on my backhand when I started, but today I make an effort to keep my pivot foot still at all times.
(*At practice, I foul routinely, especially against people I feel may get fouled in a game. Also, in less than major tourneys, I will often times foul my friends so we can laugh about it or I can complain to them they are a wimp. I do not consider this cheating, rather having fun or trying to make my teammates better.)
As a sideline guy or just watching the play on the field, I do not call stuff just b/c it was close or go against what other teams say. If it is close and a teammate of mine calls it one way, I will usually support. But if no one knows, I just don't call in our favor.
Great, I have just spent a couple of paragraphs talking about how awesome I am.
Now, where I wonder how much of a cheater I am is as a captain. Let's go back to the fouling on the mark example. I have never told, taught, or proclaimed to anyone that they should foul on the mark. But I have never discouraged anyone else if it has been said "Do not let Parinella get that throw off. Foul him if you have to." I will say to a comment like that "Better yet, just get the block." How bad is it that I have never told the person who said the first comment, "Hey, don't tell people to foul"?
Or there are guys on my team past and present that I know will foul more often than others. Especially, if they are on the opponent's main thrower. I have never addressed this issue with them. Usually when they mark up, I agree with it and start focusing on my match-up. Never do I say, "Hey you, don't foul Fill." I also know what it means when someone comes up to me and says "we need so-and-so on Fill". And I have even thought we need that guy on Fill so we can have a tough mark on him. Tough mark that sometimes (not always) equals a foul.
As a captain, do I have a bigger responsibility to make sure my team plays exactly by the rules? Or am I not spirited for knowing ahead of time that there is a good possibility for a foul? (I will say this, anyone on my team who is sketchy like this, does not always cheat. I am not trying to rat my team out, but there are guys on every team that will push what they can and can't do to opponents). I guess what allows me to sleep at nite is knowing every team has a couple of these guys. Maybe that is not good enough. Just because Truck has guys like this, does not mean we can have guys like this, etc., etc.
I do try to set an example with my play, but maybe not so much with my words. I could be sterner, but I feel I would be nit-picking. Again, I do not feel like we always have sketchy markers on the field. Nor do I feel like those guys are always in that mode of playing.
In the end, it would not matter what I say. Individuals will do what they feel is ok. And I trust my teammates to do that. I have never played with anyone who I felt really bends the rules every game. I think I would have a problem with that. I feel that currently Sub Zero plays an aggressive hard style of ultimate, but not super physical or a style of play that depends on the rules. We win b/c we played better ultimate than you, you win b/c you played better than us. I have not felt since ~02 that a team has out-called us and that was how they won their game. Our big games 2 weeks ago were clean, but also very aggressive and fun. Exactly how I think ultimate should be played. Sometimes we responded well to the challenge and won and other times we did not pull it out.
I guess the other issue with me as a captain is how often I get involved in calls that are made. Against Furious, after we called a couple close calls and their whole team erupted, I was sort of angry. Later, they made 2 close calls in a row, both times I erupted saying something like "Where is the Furious outrage after that call?" I have even yelled at individual players, the Pike game sticks out in my head. This may not be cheating, but it is definitely not very spirited.
My fear with my team is we do not push back sometimes. Lyn one time told me, "ever since you joined Sub Zero, they cheat more". My response was "ever since I joined Sub Zero, you get to cheat less". I do wonder at times how vocal I should be during calls. I tried as best I could to stay out of the way most of natties. I was really upset a couple of times at regionals, so I tried to calm down at natties.
That did not stop me from yelling "great huck aj, that had to be a foul" during a discussion. [speaking of aj, how about the other aj recapping nationals or talking about how chain lightning hates each other now or something. come on!]
Again, a lot of people do this, but as captain I probably should be setting a better example with my potty mouth.
Yeah right, that won't happen anytime soon...
posted by sometallskinnykid at 6:29 PM
4 Comments:
Tim, the only thing I want to take exception to is "In the end, it would not matter what I say. Individuals will do what they feel is ok."
While it is ultimately up to the individual, he is influenced by others, especially those in authority. How is this person going to know what's OK except by seeing and listening to what's going on around him?
Point taken.
We do have a slightly younger team. A couple of guys have only been playing 2 years. And probably only played real competitive ultimate with Sub Zero. My actions AND my words will mean more to these newer teammates then some of the established vets on my team.
I try to say things like "nice try" if someone fouls the thrower not "nice mark". A small difference b/c if you say "nice mark" you are implying you did the job by hacking the guy. Nice try implies you attempted to get a d, but missed.
My comment about not mattering what I say comes into play when you are in a big game and our team is always getting fouled. And it looks obvious that we are getting fouled on purpose, that might make someone start fouling (it did for me once). Maybe this person feels that would make the game fair. It will be tougher for me to convince this person.
(As I have said previously, this year's nationals was fairly clean for me. The above situation happened most often in college and in the early 00s).
Even my dad, who has only witnessed one real competitive tourney (hawaii), said to me, you have to call more or create more calls like the teams that beat you. His first ultimate tourney, but my dad knows enough sports to see people bending the rules.
We played a certain california team in college. On a zone point, two of their guys would always lean into the mark and throw an around backhand as they would call a foul. After 10 times or so, our marker changed from apologizing and trying to avoid contact to initiating contact and really fouling them. We laughed about it and discussed it after the game, but you know what, I could not blame him. I realize I should have told him to never do that, but is that cheating or standing up for yourself? And in this case, is standing up for yourself against spirit the game?
I guess I am never going to bite someone's head off for fouling. Mainly because I would like to believe they are giving an honest effort (going for the point block and hitting hand instead). Maybe if someone fouls their guy every time their guy gets the disc, then I would say something.
I think I help teach the game the right way to steal bastard coach Larry Brown. Or maybe not the right way, but the club way. I do feel I try to get my teams to not initiate the contact, but not to be afraid of contact. Contact is not always the defense's fault. A hard thing for some people (both on O and D) to learn.
Some people just like contact more than others...
lyn is on another semi-competitive team
"Where is the Furious outrage after that call?"
YOu did not say that, did you?
that's the worst... reaction... ever...
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